J.T. LeRoy
One thing about The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things that I like a lot is the way it captures the pain of childhood. Some of the experiences you describe are horrifying, yet they're totally believable. What was it that enabled you to write about this with such power?
My therapist and I worked really, really intensely. I had a session every day, hospitalizations, all that stuff. He kept wanting me to write, because he felt I had a problem with continuity. When I was about 15, he was teaching a graduate-level class at the University of San Francisco for people who wanted to be psychotherapists. He asked me to write for them, 'cause I really hated all those social worker/therapist types and this was a way to talk back to them. I liked the idea of having some power, so I just wrote, and I got really addicted to hearing what they thought of my work, hearing the feedback. It was the first time I was getting feedback that wasn't about sex. It became more important to me than getting high. Then I just wrote because I needed to.
What was your childhood like?
I had a normal family for the first four, almost five years of my life. I was taken from my mother when she was 14 and I was an infant. I lived with a great family. They tried to adopt me, but my mom sued to get me back when she turned 18, and she won, being the birth mother. My grandfather helped her, since he hated any government involvement in stuff. My mom was young, and it was overwhelming for her, so I would end up in placement, and then, when they found out about my grandparents, I would get sent to live with them in West Virginia. My grandfather was a preacher, so when I was with them I got very intense religious training, like studying the Bible. But then I would take off with my mom, and when I was with her I would live all over the country, in a car, in a truck, in hotels. We'd get, uh, separated. Then I'd go back, go into placement, and then get sent back to my grandparents.
What was it like? Fucked up. [laughs] But I didn't know it then. I was just a wild animal by the time I reached 12. My therapist and AA, NA, really helped restore me as much as I can be restored.
The emotions you express and your take on childhood remind me of Charles Dickens, particularly of Oliver Twist. Dickens was one of my favorite writers as a child, and he's had a big impact on my own novels. Do you like him?
I read Dickens when I lived with my grandfather, and I really dig the movie Oliver!. [laughs] I used to dream of being taken away to some place or other, some family. I just think Dickens was great at showing an underclass that most folks look down on. His best characters for me are his criminals. He seems to love them more than the morally correct ones. I dig that. His shit seeped through. [laughs]
So what other writers influenced you?
I read all the time, and there are so many great ones out there. I read Try by Dennis Cooper when I was 14 or 15, and it was phenomenal to me. I related so much, I tricked using the main character's name, Ziggy. I was blown away that someone could create something so touching and authentic without the melodrama that usually accompanies a story about an abused boy. I'd never read anything I so identified with. Dennis really mentored me after my shrink's class ended. If I hadn't had Dennis, I probably would've stopped writing.
Mary Gaitskill's also a colossal influence. Her books are daunting?how she describes people, situations, is just brilliance. She really disciplined me as a writer. She sent me stuff by Nabokov and Flannery O'Connor and pointed out what to look for.
A lot of folks offered me their guidance to different degrees?Bruce Benderson, Joel Rose, Tom Spanbauer. It was what I needed at the time. It really sucks to name anyone, 'cause then you leave a million out. I dig you, too.
Uh, gee, thanks. I really appreciate that. Um, so, when you write about Jeremiah's grandparents in The Heart Is Deceitful, there seems to be a link made between sadomasochism and suppression of sexuality because of religious beliefs. Was that intentional?
The only way I felt love with my grandfather, the only way I ever really got touched by him, was to be punished, and that was often true with my mom, too. So when you have that kind of experience growing up, the idea of getting a beating seems soothing. I think the Bible is full of that shit. And folks take that very literally and beat their kids 'cause that's what it says to do. I want folks to see how fucking sick that is. Fucked me up good. There's not a day that goes by when it doesn't occur to me, "Hmm, I think I'd like to go and get a beating. Or hurt myself." Like other people go out for a run, I want to get beaten up, burn myself, cut myself. I ain't got nothing against the s&m community, and for some folks s&m works. I wish it did for me, but right now it doesn't. It's like doing drugs, you know. I have no limits. I can't just do some. I'll get myself killed. Or I'll OD. There's a part of me that really wants that, that's turned on by the idea of dying that way. I want to understand vanilla sex, but right now I don't. When I see it in a film, there's a part of me always waiting for someone to hit someone so the shit can really get hot. My wiring got screwed up, and I feel that loss.
One of the things I like best about both The Heart Is Deceitful and Sarah is the way you handle sexual identity and gender. The lines dividing the sexes in your stuff are so fluid, it's refreshing, like in that scene in The Heart where Jeremiah offhandedly says that sometimes he's not a boy. What are your thoughts on this?
My mom had a theory that if she met a guy, he would feel challenged if she had a son, but if it was a girl, her sister or daughter, it would be easier. I just found that people were nicer to me when they thought I was a pretty little girl, and I liked that power. Also, with my grandparents, the girls definitely got treated better. My grandfather wasn't as harsh with them. It just seemed like boys didn't have any fun. So, yeah, things like gender were really fluid when I was with my mom. I guess things just weren't set the way they usually are for people. So, now I'm just fucking all confused. I don't know where I'll end up.
There's this mystique that surrounds you now, which I think has a lot to do with the blurring of genders in your books. It's like people can't handle sexual ambiguity. Some of them think you're a boy, others say you're a girl, still others think you're transgendered. What are your feelings about this?
Well, that's part of why I want to stay out of public view. I'm really just trying to find out who I am. Being off drugs and drinking is a whole new world, and I change from day to day. Folks get used to me being in a fixed role or identity. You know, some gay guys want me to be a gay guy like them, or be a little boy, and transgendered people want me to be in their group. I just want to be able to be what I want to be whenever I want to be it. I don't want to be walking down the street and have someone say, "Hey, I know what you really are!" That's fuckin' dangerous, and that would kill me emotionally. Folks wanna destroy shit they don't understand, drag it out and put it under a light and say, "Aha!" I just wanna do my thing and be whoever I am, whoever that is. I don't know yet. I don't know why folks aren't okay with that, but I am learning to say fuck 'em.
Your mystique has extended to other areas as well. It's like a lot of people can't believe that anyone your age, who's led the life that you have, has actually written stuff as good as yours is. They say that Dennis Cooper or Mary Gaitskill or someone else helped you. How do you feel about this? Do you find rumors like these insulting?
I've heard so many different things. It's funny because I even heard it myself, like in a bookstore when folks didn't know it was me they were talking to. I had my wig and glasses on. They said there's no way I could have written this book, I'm too much of a fuck-up. I mean, yeah, that hurts. I was even told by this guy that owned a bookstore that he personally knew the real writer of Sarah. He told me all these details. I was with my boyfriend, and we really had a hard time not laughing. But I also, I really like having a lot of screens between me and my work. I mean, it's not like I'm writing about some innocuous subject. I like having questions about who I actually am. It makes things a lot safer.
Before this all started, Dennis Cooper and I figured out that what's safe for me is to avoid all contact. I'm bad at boundaries, but I'm learning to keep some. I mean, everything you need to know is in Sarah anyway. My essence is there. I find it very painful to be out in the world, to be looked at. This'll sound bizarre, but I can hear what people think of me, and usually it's really bad. People look you over, scan you, and I can hear what they're thinking, and even if they're being nice and smiling, they're still looking you over and thinking things about you, judging you. When I hear what they're thinking and it gets really loud in my head, I can't turn it off. Meds help. But even if they tell me that's not what they're thinking, I just can't take it. So if folks think I'm Dennis Cooper or whoever, that's swell. I mean, yeah, sometimes it makes me mad. It's like, "Fuck you, I worked hard to have a voice, and now you want to take it from me? Fuck you!" But also, it's my parachute.
So how are you handling fame now?
I didn't expect anything like this. I mean, I didn't seek out a book deal or an agent. My work got passed around, from Dennis Cooper to Bruce Benderson to Joel Rose to his agent and book editor, and I had a deal before I had a home. But I ain't famous at all really. I'm in awe of so many writers that're way ahead of me. I just feel deficient in my skills fuckin' constantly. I'm almost there as a writer, but there's still a loud voice inside that keeps saying it's all going to disappear. I've spoken to other artists, musicians, painters, actors, and they say that voice never goes away. You just keep doing it and tell the voice to shut up.
John Waters told me that the most un-American thing you could do is reject fame. Well, I feel pretty un-American. I used to wait for it all to fix me. But when my book hit a bestseller list, shit didn't change. I was still in my skin hating myself. Nothing fixes it but the work with my shrink, the inside work. And AA, that keeps me sane too. If I were out there getting applause, I'd be back on drugs in no time. 'Cause in a very deep sense I crave the attention that I didn't get as a kid. And no amount of applause'll ever be enough to fill that vacancy.
I've heard that you don't like to read your stuff in public, that you like to have other people read your work for you. Is this true?
The first time I was ever published I was 17. Laurie Stone included my story "Baby Doll" in an anthology called Close to the Bone. Someone convinced me to do a reading when it was released, and it was a nightmare. At the time I was still using drugs, and I thought I'd taken enough shit to not be nervous. But my hands were shaking so hard I couldn't see the words. And I started stuttering on the first word, and then I threw up. The weird thing was, folks thought it was performance art, so they applauded as I ran off. I swore, never again.
Mary Gaitskill was the one who came up with the idea of organizing other folks to read my stuff. She knew I wasn't going to read, so she came up with the idea of readings by her and other folks. It's really been way more interesting for me to hear other voices.
Gus Van Sant is making a movie of Sarah, isn't he? When does filming begin? Will Mike Pitt be playing the lead?
I'm not sure when filming'll actually start, but they're casting right now. Mike Pitt won't be Sarah/Cherry Vanilla, 'cause the actor needs to be younger. I hope Pitt is in there somewhere, but it's obviously not up to me. I'd think the lead would go to someone unknown, and it's really exciting to know that person is out there right now. I think he has to be someone with the same kind of expressive beauty as River Phoenix in Stand by Me, the same capacity to communicate pain.
From what I've read, you and Van Sant have formed a very tight bond. Can you tell me about that?
Gus has taken me under his wing and really been there for me on many levels. Sarah is like my baby, and I needed to be able to trust that she would be loved and cared for. Gus chose Patti Sullivan to write the screenplay, and she is fucking incredible. I think it's going to be really visually beautiful, 'cause Gus is like that as an artist. It's become like a family working with Gus and Patti, real tight, and I love the script she wrote. I love her with all my heart. I could never have done it any other way.
So what are you working on now?
I'm working with Gus on a number of projects, including a film for HBO. I'm writing the screenplay. And I'm collaborating with Todd Kessler [creator of Blue's Clues] and Rebecca Goldstein at No Hands Productions on an independent television series called House Arrest and an animated children's feature film. I have ideas for novels that I still have to get out from inside of me, so I'm writing for magazines and doing interviews for New York Press. I want to write a sequel to Sarah. I'm not ready yet to let that character go. Or my mom.
And I want to be Miss America one day. All this is just to bring me closer to that goal.
Joel Rose, Mary Gaitskill, actors Mike Pitt and Danny Pintauro and Garbage's Shirley Manson will read selections from The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things as part of a benefit celebrating the release of Sandbox Magazine #9 on Weds., June 13, starting at 8:30, at the Brooklyn Brewery, 79 N. 11th St. (betw. Wythe Ave. & Berry St.), Williamsburg, 718-486-7422.